Heart Sutra Retreat (Audio and Unedited Transcripts)

By Kyabje Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Genting View Resort, Malaysia (Archive #1048)

The following are teachings from a Heart Sutra retreat held in Malaysia in 1997.

The teachings include oral transmissions of the Vajrasattva mantra and the Heart Sutra and teachings on rebirth, bodhicitta and emptiness.

Merely Labelled by Mind

[preliminary prayers]

So, another way to get some idea of, another technique to recognize what is false, what is truth, what is the thing that exists, what is the thing that, in our view, in regards our view, in regards existence, what is false and what is the thing that really exists or, so this is also very helpful for this, this example that I normally give [long pause], so one go back to childhood time, can be ______ time or [pause], so the teacher writes down on the blackboard or on the paper, writes down the, draws the lines, anyway, the teacher draws lines like this, so like that, yeah, perhaps maybe easier this one, this is letter I, E, maybe E. So teacher writes down lines like this, lines, so we think of the evolution, the teacher writes down the lines like this, like that, one design like this, then like this.

Then, so before the teacher introduces you, what is that letter? Before the teacher introduces you, the letter, so what you the child, in your view, it's just, what appears to you and what you see is just the lines like this. That time, before the teacher introduced you what exactly it is, so that time you don't see that this is the letter A, you don't see, that time you don't see that this is letter A. That time there's no appearance to you that this is letter A, you don't have appearance that this is letter A. Why you don't have appearance, why you don't see that this is letter A because you don't have appearance that this is letter A. And why you don't have appearance that this is letter A is because your mind hasn't made up the label A, not A, E! Your mind hasn't made up the label E and believed in that. So why there's no appearance, why you don't have appearance that this is letter E is because your mind hasn't made up the label E and believed in that, so that is because nobody, the teacher hasn't taught, the teacher hasn't introduced you that this is letter E. So therefore you don't see that this is letter E, you don't see, you don't have appearance that this is letter E, just the lines like this.

So, now this is what is called, this is the base, so the thing that you see, the lines that you see like this, before you see that this is letter A, and appearing that this is letter A before that, so this is the base, so what you are seeing now here is, you are seeing the base to be labeled E, you are seeing the base to be labeled E. So now then the teacher introduces you, after this line is written, after these lines are drawn there, teacher introduces you that this is E, then you follow to that, you believe in that, you follow to that and then your mind, relating to these lines or because there's these lines on the paper or blackboard, so your mind make up the label E and believe in that. And because of that, then after that there's appearance, you have appearance that this is letter E, you have appearance. After that, after the appearance, then you see that this is letter E, so your seeing that this is letter E comes much later.

So before seeing that this is letter E [pause], so, anyway, seeing that this is letter E comes much later.

So, I think that's confused. So yeah, like this. First I explain this one. So from here you can understand, you see the base to be labeled E first and then you see the E afterwards. You don't see together, you don't see at the same time. You see the base to be labeled E first, then you see the label E later, afterwards. So this is very important point, extremely important point to have this understanding. You don't see the base and the label E, you don't see the base to be labeled E and the label E, you don't see at the same time. There's no way to see at the same time. So you see the base first and then you see the label E later.

So now you can see that means the base, this line like this, that which is the base and the label E, they are not one. What it shows, because you see the base first, afterwards you see E, so that shows, just that experience what happens in our daily life, it shows that the base and the label E, the base, that line, that particular design, line, and the label E is not one, they are different phenomena, it shows, they are different phenomena. So this is extremely important, very important point to be able to differentiate the base and the label, extremely important, very essential point that, to be able to recognize what is object to be refuted, that which is false, that which is hallucination, and to be able to realize the truth of what exists, to be able to realize emptiness and that phenomena which exists.

So now you know it's different, the base, that which is the design of the line, that particular line and the label E, different, that's not one, they are different phenomena. Normally, in our view, normally in the past how it has been, the view of the E, the letter E, how it has been, perhaps can be said as it's one, the base to be labeled E and the label E as it's one or undifferentiable, this is how it has been in our perception, this is how it appears to our hallucinated mind and we believe in that way. So this is our old view, old perception or old view, so this is what is called object to be refuted. So one definition object to be refuted, the false object, that is this, base and the label undifferentiable, in our view, even though they are different in reality, but in one's own perception, undifferentiable.

So this, so maybe I first finish this one.... So [pause], the E what exists is, by seeing the base, this particular design first, and then that thought made up the label, merely imputed or made up the label E. So that is, so that, E what exists is that. So by seeing this particular design, line like this, then your mind seeing that then second time made up the label E. So that is what it exists, E what exists. The E which appears to us undifferentiable with the base, oneness or undifferentiable with the base, so that one is the, the E which appears in that way and that which we believe, that is what is object to be refuted and that is hallucination and that is totally non-existent, that E is totally non-existent.

So it's the same thing, so like this example, in our perception, I appearing, the I which exists is by seeing the aggregates then the thought which made up the label I, that thought, I which is merely labeled by that thought, that is the I what exists. But then in our perception not appearing that way, appearing that the I is undifferentiable with the aggregates. [pause] So that is object to be, the I appearing this way, undifferentiable with the aggregates, so this, as if it's oneness, undifferentiable with the base, the aggregates, that is object to be refuted, so that is totally hallucination, non-existent. That is totally empty.

So like this, any phenomenon that we, all the rest of the phenomena, for example, here what we see, the form, the flowers, lights, the table, cloth, ceiling, windows, mountains, sky, statues, all these people, all these forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tangible objects, all these, that we don't see different from the base, we don't see that way, all this rest of phenomena as it's undifferentiable from the base. How it appears all these things to our mind as undifferentiable from the base. So all these are hallucinations, all these part of appearance, all these are hallucinations. So all these are objects to be refuted, all these are false objects, all these are false and all these are what we have to realize are empty.

So now, now even to make more clear, so now here on this design [pause], if you look for the E on this design, on these lines, first you see here, on this line, you cannot find E. On this line you cannot find E. And on this line you cannot find E. On this line you cannot find E. On that line you cannot find E. And even the whole group of this design like this, even on the whole group of these lines like this, you cannot find E on there. If you look for the E there, you cannot find. On each piece you cannot find E. Even the whole group together, on this you cannot find E. There's no E there. So this is extremely important point, this understanding. On each piece you cannot find E. Even the whole group together on this you cannot find E.

So you see now, put it this way, so this line like this, that's not the E, and this line like this is not E, this line like this is not E, this line like this is not E, these are parts of the E. So each line like this is a part of the E, so part of the E means it's not E. Just from the language you can understand part of the E means it's not E. Like for example, similar, as I often use, part of the car doesn't mean it's car. You cannot use part of the car to bring people , from here to Kuala Lumpur. You cannot drive the part of the car, you cannot bring different people by the part of the car, these pieces of the car, by part of that cannot bring people, cannot drive, cannot take people.

So like part of the car means it's not car, so similar apply here. So part of the E means it's not E. So each piece, this is part of the E, so it's not E. And even the whole thing, even the whole design is not E. Why? Because, that is the base, why the whole design is not E because that is the base to be labeled E. If the base, so this design, if this base is the E, then from the very beginning when you see the base, you should be able to see E, from the very beginning when you see the line on the paper or the blackboard, drawn there, from the very beginning [snaps fingers] you should be able to see E, but you don't see E. You just see the line, you don't see E. You understand, if the base, that design, if that is E, then you should see, from the very beginning when you see the design you should be able to see E, from the very beginning, before you are introduced that this is E, that time you are seeing the base but you are not seeing the E.

Now, even after we were taught that this is E, even after, for example, even now, so like this, now we have to think this way [pause], what is it that makes your mind to choose the particular label E? What makes you do that? That's another way of analyzing. What is it…

…design like this, like this or like this one, ?half . Almost, anyway, so this one, so even that doesn't make you to choose the particular label E. Any other design, by seeing another design doesn't make you to choose the particular label E. Only, what makes you to choose the particular label E is only by seeing this particular design, like this and three like this. Generally, that is according to the individual person's writing or handwriting, all are, many funny things anyway. So this is an example.

So what makes your mind to choose the particular label E is only by seeing this particular design first, by seeing this first, then your mind chooses the particular label E. By seeing this particular design first then as a result mind makes particular label E. So you can see now there's a reason before the mind makes up the label, there is a reason. The reason is the base, what is that reason? The reason is seeing the base.

So now, so that means, now here, yes, similar, among many people, before your mind make up the label, this is my mother or this is my father, there are many people there, there are many bodies, many aggregates are there, so just by seeing any aggregates doesn't make you to decide the particular label, my father or my mother. So even though hundreds, thousands, millions, billions, how many there are aggregates, so only, what makes you decide the label, this is my father or this is my mother, your mind to make up the label, this is my father, this is my mother, so you have to see something first, yeah, there has to be reason before that and that is seeing a particular figure, the body, the aggregates, particular figure and that they gave birth to you.

Particular aggregates, particular body and which did that function, gave birth. So seeing that particular aggregates first, then as a result your mind chooses the particular label father or mother, my father or my mother. So therefore even here you see the base, the aggregates, first, then afterwards you see the mother, father. Same, you see the aggregates first, then you see the person later. You don't see aggregates and father together, at the same time.

You don't see aggregates of the mother, the base, and the label mother you don't see at the same time. The aggregates, the base, and the label father, you don't see at the same time, so you see different times. You see the base, aggregates, first, then you see later the father and mother or the person.

You see the base, aggregates, first then you see that person later.

So it's the same with all the rest, same, you see the aggregates first then see the I later, first see the aggregates, the base, then after that you see the label I. Like this, same with all the rest of the phenomena. There's a base and there's a label. So the label E, and the base, that particular design, the base, those two are not separate, they don't exist separately, but they exist differently. Same thing the I and the aggregates do not exist separately but they exist differently, they are not one, they are not one.

So now, so this is how it is all the rest of the phenomena but we are not aware in our daily life. How these things appear to us is as they are undifferentiable with the base, so totally false. The way things appear, everything, all the phenomena, including the I, the way it appears to us and the way we believe is totally wrong, totally false. So actually, in order to realize emptiness, we have to know how the whole life is totally lived in the hallucination, total hallucination; so only then you can get the idea of emptiness. Otherwise, not. I mean there are different types of hallucinations, there are different levels or different types of hallucinations.

So now to conclude this, so here, so design like this here, so each piece of this is not E, even all together it's not E, because all together it's the base to be labeled E, by seeing this first, the base, then to be labeled E. So this, even the whole design together, like this, this is not E. Now, you see, if this is E, another reason to go further more analysis, if this design is E, if that base is the label E, then when you see the base [snaps fingers] at the same time you should see the E. The further analysis is that, now, in that case, if you are seeing, as soon as the base you see the E at the same time, the next question is what makes your mind to see the E? What is the reason there makes your mind to see the letter E? So is there a reason that makes, is there any reason to make the mind to decide the particular label E? Or not? This design like this is the base, if this is the E, if this base is the label E, then you should see, from the very beginning when you see the base, as soon as you see the base you should be able to see E. So then in that case, then what is the reason, is there any reason that makes your mind to choose the particular label E or not? Uh? Is there any reason that makes your mind to choose the particular label E or not?

[Reply inaudible]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is , if this design, this is the base of the E, and if this is the E, if this base is the label E, then as soon as you look at the base, you should be able to see the E, according to that, then you should be able to see E from the very, as soon as you see the base [snaps fingers], this design, you should be able to see E, but instant. So the reality is not, in reality that's not the way, that's not the evolution, reality is first you just draw this, then before you are introduced this is E you have no appearance that this is E and you don't see that this is letter E, okay? Just design like this. Only after teacher introduces you that this is letter E and you follow, only after your mind labeled, made up the label and believe in that, then only after that you have the appearance that this is E and you see this is the letter E.

So yeah, so now what I'm saying here is, if you believe this design like this, which is the base, if this is the letter E, if this is the E, then mistake what comes is when you see this design, base, should be able to see at the same time, this mistake will rise. And if you are seeing that this design is E, which is the base, when you see this you see the letter E at the same time, then what is it, what is the reason there that causes your mind to choose the particular label E? Your mind to make up the particular label E, you understand?

So there's no reason , anyway, if you're not answering, then I'll answer. I think no time to wait anyway. So there's no reason, there hasn't got any reason because all the rest of the designs, like this or even like that, all these other things doesn't cause you, doesn't make your mind to choose the particular label E. So you have to see something first, you have to see a particular design first before your mind makes up the label E; so therefore, particular design is this one, so that is the base. You have to see the base first, the particular base, particular design, particular base first. Only then the label comes from your mind. Only then your mind makes up the label. So this is the evolution.

So now here you think, now one very important thing is this, so each piece, each design like this is not E, each of these is not the E, even the whole design is not the E, okay? And you cannot find E on this anywhere, you cannot find E. First analyze each piece is not the E, okay. Each line, each piece of line. And the whole complete design is not the E, okay. Third, you cannot find the E on this. On each line you cannot find the E, on this one you cannot find the E, on this one you cannot find the E, on this one you cannot find the E. On these lines you cannot find the E anywhere. So that means E does not exist on these lines. So the conclusion is, on these lines E doesn't exist, there's no E there. There's no E on this base, on this design. So that is extremely important, that is extremely important point, this discovery, in order to realize what is false, what is reality, the E, so here relating to the E. This is just an example to understand all the rest. With every phenomenon what is false and what is the reality, what exists, what doesn't exist.

So on this design there's no E, on this base there's no E. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is E on the paper, on the blackboard, because there is this design, this design is there on the paper, on the blackboard. But on this design, base, there's no E. So now what it is becomes extremely subtle, extremely subtle phenomenon. If you analyze what it is, again as I mentioned yesterday, the I, how it is extremely fine phenomenon, so here E, again become extremely subtle.

So now here, on top of that, the mind, reason by seeing this base, the mind just creates the mind, mind just makes the idea, just made up the label E, just made up the idea, the label, E. That's it. So now here, think, so how's it possible E there on that design? From this one can see not possible, it doesn't exist there on the design, on the base at all. So E what exists is what is merely, because there is this design, base, and then mind just made up the idea, just made up the label, E, that's it. So we have to satisfy how the E exists just by that.