Teachings before Mitukpa Initiation, Taiwan 2007 (Audio and Unedited Transcripts)

By Kyabje Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Shakyamuni Center, Taiwan 2007 (Archive #1606)

Lama Zopa Rinpoche gave teachings and a Mitukpa initiation at Shakyamuni Center, Taichung, Taiwan, February 25-26, 2007. Included here are excerpts from the teachings given before the initiation. It is not appropriate to post the recordings of the actual initiation.

There were also some general teachings given during and after the initiation, but the recording was not clear enough to publish online. Those teachings were able to be transcribed, though, and we have posted the edited version of the entire series (less the actual initiation) here.

Mitukpa Initiation Part Two: What is Dharma

So anyway, so conclusion what I was saying that, [pause]

So here the problem is, the problem here didn’t come from outside. It’s very clear it didn’t come from outside. It is just your own mind made up your life problem, your life problem, just made up your mind, it’s simply by your concept, depending what you label. So basically nothing, none of these problems came from outside. You can see very clear, it’s totally to do with your mind. Then, so both are superstition. The four desirable objects, these are good, attachment to that is superstition. Worry, fears, all these, meeting the undesirable object is also superstition. So everything is just a concept.

So anyway, now, to stop this, so when you, without talking about, without talking emptiness, such a high subject, emptiness, without talking those things, just realizing that this human body is so precious, qualified with eight freedom, ten richness and that you can achieve three great meanings with this, all the happiness which you can achieve with this and you can cause to numberless sentient beings, the happiness to others, then you think about the happiness of this life, happiness of all the coming future lives you can cause then liberation from samsara you can cause them, enlightenment, great liberation, cause all sentient beings, with this perfect human body by practicing Dharma, unbelievable what you can do to numberless sentient beings. And then it’s only just about once, and this is difficult to find again, and then especially impermanence and death, that death can happen any time, that death can happen any day, any time.

So now, by thinking especially this subject, nature of the life, then immediately this superstitious mind, why the attachment is superstition? Why attachment is superstition? In Tibetan called nam tok, why the attachment is superstition? [pause]

There’s no such object what the attachment believes, grasp, there’s no such object as the attachment grasps. If you analyze, there’s no such thing. It’s like, in the dream you see things that you get attached to, you see beautiful things, in the dream you see beautiful things, beautiful body, beautiful flower, I ?might/must say beautiful flower [RL], shouldn’t ?really ?miss out. Anyway, so in the dream you see these things then you get attached to that. It is the same, exactly the same. So you see can that one is superstition because you know that doesn’t exist, so in the dream the object what you get attached to doesn’t exist. So it’s exactly the same, so exactly the same even when you are not sleeping, not having dream. So here, that these four desirable objects, however, all these things I mentioned before, all these things, [pause] appeared, they all appear something real, real one in the sense existing from their own side. All these desirable objects, something real, in the sense existing from their own side, not merely labeled, even though all these [pause] receiving material, praise or reputation or comfort, all the friends, money, and all these things, food and clothing, all these things, however, even though they are merely imputed by mind, what they are is what is merely imputed by mind, so that’s what you discover when you analyze, how they exist is in mere name, merely imputed by mind. But to our hallucinated mind they all appeared something real in the sense existing from their own side. [pause] Something independent. And even the most gross hallucination, nothing to do with your mind, never came from your mind, nothing to do with your mind, so extremely, unbelievable gross hallucination.

So anyway, on this, so what I was saying at the beginning of the talk, I think one of the beginning talks, so here there is all the false view of the four schools of Buddhist philosophers, from the Vaibhashika school, like the ?ne ma pu pai depa, this one school, so, exists permanent, appearance is permanent, existing alone without depending on parts, without depending on cause and conditions, existing with its own freedom, so it’s all there. So from the Madhyamika school, second one, Prasangika school, something extra, something a little extra, something extra than what is merely labeled by mind, something additional from what is merely labeled by the mind, so the gak-cha, object to be refuted, from the Prasangika school view, from there the rang gyupa, the Svatantrika, [pause] so there is a very specific translations needs to be done according to the Tibetan words, but I can’t do it, however, totally existing from its own side, absolutely, totally, without depending on, without appearing to the undefective, valid mind and that undefective valid mind labeling, so it’s there. So all the different, the Chittamatra, Mind Only school, however, all the four schools of Buddhist philosophers, their point of view of the wrong view, their own kind of gak-cha or their wrong view, so everything’s there. So anyway, on top of all this, the very last one, very gross, extremely gross that is permanent and existing alone without depending on parts, existing with its own freedom without depending on cause and conditions, so everything is there. So then on top of this, by believing, allowing your mind to believe on these piles of hallucinations then thinking this is good, then the attachment rises. So you see, then the attachment rises. On all this big piles of hallucination then the attachment rises. So you can see now, what attachment grasps or apprehends is not there. So that’s why it is superstition, the attachment how it is superstition is that, in Tibetan it’s called namtok, how the delusions are superstition and the king of the superstition is, of course, the ignorance, the concept holding things as truly existent.

Sorry, it became again long.

Now I forgot where I came from. Forgot from where it came. I think trying to explain what Dharma is then….

So anyway, so now here, before I explained, Dharma, what means Dharma, which brings happiness, benefits, when we die, beyond from this, up to enlightenment, which brings happiness beyond from this life. So we talked, I talked about nonvirtues then, suffering, rebirth of the suffering transmigratory being, okay, virtue then you have rebirth of the body of the happy transmigratory being, so, from virtue then you have happiness in the future lives. Nonvirtue then suffering in future lives. So therefore, you see here, so here the solution, you can see very clearly is Dharma. The virtue is Dharma, the positive thought, the virtuous thought and actions motivated by that, Dharma. So therefore, if you don’t want suffering after this life, those suffering rebirths, the unhappiness, the happiness of future lives, the body of the happy transmigratory being then there is no other way, only practice Dharma. So I am saying here why we need to practice Dharma, what is Dharma.

Now the, just very simple, just simple way, so all the happiness of future lives, perfect, beautiful body, in all the future lives to have beautiful body and wealth, to have long life, all the things, has to come from Dharma, has to come from virtue. So therefore, we need to practice Dharma in this life.

Then even more important, liberation from samsara, the ultimate happiness, liberation, free forever from the oceans of samsaric suffering and cause, delusion and karma. So this is much more important to achieve this, need to achieve this. So then now, Dharma practice becomes even much, only through Dharma, that’s only through Dharma by actualizing the path, from the Four Noble Truths, realizing suffering, true suffering, true cause of suffering then cessation, then you actualize the true path and then you actualize cessation of the suffering. So, this is Dharma. To be free forever the cycle of death and rebirth, old age, sickness, all these sufferings, free forever, then must practice Dharma, if this is what you wish.

Then especially great liberation, full enlightenment, cessation of all the, not only the gross defilements but subtle defilements and completion all the qualities of cessation, completion of all the qualities of realizations. So to have perfect quality of omniscience, and perfect compassion and power, to be able to liberate numberless sentient beings from the oceans of samsaric suffering and bring them to full enlightenment, so which is the main purpose of our life, which is the main goal of our life. So then now to practice Dharma, so this is the best one, this is the best one, to achieve enlightenment for sentient beings, so one engage in the path to achieve enlightenment for sentient beings. So this is Dharma.

So now next, so now here, Dharma, how it’s so important, the most important in the life, now here, the third, this last one is the most important. So now, as I was talking before, how this attachment is nature of suffering, by following attachment, it only gives you dissatisfaction, the fundamental suffering. Then because of this, then you engage in many negative karmas, harm others, kill, steal, telling lies, engage in so many negative karmas, harming others and harming yourself, Because of dissatisfaction, that this attachment causes.

So now here, and brings so many problems in the life, so and these negative emotional thoughts, attachment, obscures the mind, so therefore now, even you don’t accept reincarnation, karma, even you don’t accept next life, liberation, enlightenment, but you want happiness of this life, but still you want to be happy this life, so even in that case, you need to practice Dharma. Even you, since you want happiness, since you want this life’s, you don’t ?actually want all those other things, but you want this life to be happy, so in that case, you need to practice Dharma. Why? Because I just described, all this, nature of all these things, because attachment to these four desirable objects then you have all this worry, fear all this, undesirable object meeting. All this life, so all that part of the life problem is because of attachment for desirable objects, and even you succeed this, that what still life is suffering. So described the nature of the thought, what effects to you, all that. So therefore, since you don’t want to suffer in this life, you want happiness, so you need to practice contentment, renunciation. You need to be free from, you need to let go this obscuring disturbing negative attitude, the desire, clinging, grasping this, you need to let go, so renunciation. So you need here, you need to practice Dharma, renunciation, letting go desire, you need to practice that, no choice, if you want happiness, peace. You want to get satisfaction, no choice. So even you don’t, even you think only this life, [pause] so one do not accept all those other things, just only this life, one life, but since you want happiness, no choice, you have to practice renunciation. When you have relationship problems, desire problems, relationship problems, unbelievable confusion one after another, after one, another one, after one then another one, so here, so since you, one doesn’t want that, it’s like being in the hell, you are not in hell but mentally you are in hell, so you don’t want that, then you have to let go desire, so that’s Dharma.

You have to let go desire, no choice, that’s only what is left, solution, so that is Dharma.

So if you, also I mentioned the other day, when you are, if you don’t practice patience, always you follow anger then it breaks your relationship in the family, relationship between you and children, you and husband or wife, parents, so friends, if you don’t practice patience, so you break all these. So cause disturbance, unhappiness to others, unhappiness to others and unhappiness to yourself. So you don’t, so then also if you don’t practice patience also it becomes obstacle also in your job. Then you get upset, you say something to the boss, the people who are working in the office, or they say something, they do some action, they say something, boss or something then you get angry. You don’t practice patience, you get angry, then you say something negative with anger, comes only anger, then they get angry, then they fire you, then the boss, _______ other people, then you lose your job.

There was one story happened, one Tibetan boy, in the United States, one Tibetan boy didn’t get a job for years and [pause] then the mother looked for job, no, no, not mother, Geshe Sopa Rinpoche’s two attendants, one attendant who is disrobed, so he has a good job, he found a good job. So then he helped the Tibetan boy to find a job. Didn’t find for years job, then now he found job, a good job. So ____ ______ _______ shop, anyway. So, they were going to have a party, so the lady, not the main boss but the head of the staff, I think, so put table outside, put the cookies for the party, for the party so to happen after one hour, something like that.

So what happened, so this Tibetan boy didn’t know, so he started to eat the cookies. Then the lady who is charge, told him, it’s not time yet, the party is later, it’s not time yet. Then I think he got upset because she told, don’t eat, not time yet, so I think the boy got upset, so I think arrogance or he got upset. Then next day, then tomorrow he didn’t have a job. He was kicked out. So the boss, what do you call? Fired, yeah.

So anyway, so if one does not practice patience, then it brings also a lot of obstacles to the job. So success of job, success of work. So then you have a lot of difficulties with the others. So therefore now here, you want to have continual stable job and you want everybody to be happy with you so no question, if you don’t practice patience, always follow anger then you don’t achieve your wishes. So therefore here it becomes one of the extremely important education or practice to practice patience, to train the mind in patience. So now here, remedy to anger, practicing patience, remedy to the anger, so that’s Dharma, practice of patience, remedy to the anger, to pacify anger, to stop rising that, so that’s Dharma, that’s pure Dharma, and letting go desire is pure Dharma. So when you practice compassion that is pure Dharma, when you practice loving kindness, it’s pure Dharma. So you have to, so you see, even who doesn’t accept all those other things but since that person wants happiness of this life, need to practice Dharma, no choice. So when you this practice, the few examples I mentioned, that is pure Dharma. Not just acting Dharma, not just looking Dharma but not real Dharma, not Dharma, not like that. But here it becomes pure Dharma.

The reciting, making offerings or reciting, reciting prayers, doing meditation, making charity, reciting prayers, meditation, all this, so they can be looking, if the motivation did not become Dharma, they can look as spiritual, Dharma, but not real Dharma. So the person appears religious person, Dharma practitioner, but not real Dharma practitioner. Can happen like that. But here in this case, when you practice patience even though you only think of happiness of this life, but when you practice patience, antidote to anger, when you practice loving kindness, compassion, so the ego, that time ego, self-cherishing thought, it becomes antidote to that, cherishing others when you practice. So letting go desire, so that’s real, pure Dharma. So therefore even what you want is only happiness of this life, nothing else, no, one doesn’t accept happiness of future life, liberation from samsara, enlightenment, even one doesn’t accept those, but still no choice, have to practice Dharma.

Yeah. Otherwise it become next year….

She-shei. [Applause from audience]

Unbelievable, unbelievable.

So then other meaning of, another definition of Dharma is that, any action of body, speech and mind that becomes antidote to delusion. Like when we have sicknesses, then we take the medicine that which is antidote to each different sicknesses, so like that, to heal. So when our action of body, speech and mind becomes, any of the action of body, speech and mind becomes antidote to delusion then that becomes Dharma, so one of the definitions is that.

So the one before, even you don’t believe the reincarnation, karma, and liberation from samsara, enlightenment, even you don’t accept those things but since you want happiness then still you need to practice Dharma, so that part of the explanation I did, how it becomes Dharma. So when you have a relationship problem in particular and the, when you have so much, when you want, in the business life when you want so much, looking for, so much expansion and so much, when you achieve millions then you want, when you achieve one hundred thousand, when you achieve a thousand then you want ten thousands, and when you achieve ten thousands then you want one hundred thousand. When you succeed, when you make money one hundred thousand then you want a million and when you got a million then want a billion, when you got a billion you want a zillion and when you got a zillion, you want a trillion, so then unbelievable, so many things you want, it’s ?expanded. Then so much worry, fear, not happening, those things, and that will not be succeed in the future or that not happening now and however, so all this, the life is in so much confusion, so much problem, so when the desire, so much desire. So the antidote, renunciation, so let go. So to stop the problem so you reduce the desire, so let go, that’s renunciation, letting go. Letting go the desire, that which, from where like roots spread out, like branches spread out main tree, like that, so many problems, hundred thousands of, so many problems but all come from one thing, desire. So antidote to, antidote to let go, that’s renunciation and then brings immediately, immediately satisfaction in your heart. With empty heart then you filled with satisfaction, peace, inner peace and happiness. So then healthy mind and when the mind is healthy then your body is healthy, blood circulation, all that, so forth, heart and all these things, healthy. Body becomes healthy.

So nowadays there are so many research from the Boston University and so many research that has been done the last quite number of years and they all proved that meditation, how meditation is so important for the mind, and when you make the mind bring in peace, stable, then how that’s helpful for health of the body. And also particularly compassion, a person who thinks of others in the daily life, cherishing others, thinking of others first, who is concerned of others then, who has more compassion to others, then they discovered that it helps the physical health, there’s something to do about the heart, some subtle, some heart disease, it is proved they could not find, people who have compassion, the researchers they could not find that some heart disease, some subtle something, they could not find that, so it proved that definitely makes difference, it helps for the health of the body.

And also one doctor in Delhi, Indian doctor in Delhi, but when I say, Indian, but probably, I don’t know how it is here but generally may sound, [RL] now India is becoming very developed country anyway, even though it was regarded very primitive, third country or primitive, but however in the West, many doctors, many excellent doctors are Indians in the West. So Geshe, who’s ex-abbot of Sera Je, Geshe Jampa Tekchok, so when he was in England, at Manjushri Institute, which was an FPMT center before, so Geshe Jampa Tekchok was there to teach philosophy and Geshe Kelsang was to teach the lam-rim and tantra commentaries, something like that.

Anyway, Geshe Jampa Tekchok had some health problems, so then he went in London, he was taken to London to see a doctor, the top doctor, so he went on and on and on and then when he reached this very big hospital, then he went to the top doctor, so then he saw, when he went to see him, then he was an Indian, he was shocked. When he saw he was Indian he was shocked because the idea of Indians kind of low and maybe undeveloped or something. So Geshe-la was shocked when he saw the very top, most expert doctor in London that big hospital is Indian.

So anyway, so this is a side-talk.

So anyway, so the doctor in Delhi mentioned that what causes the heart attack and things like that, this particular doctor from Delhi said, through his analysis, if you, thinking others bad, when you put negative label on other people, so this doctor’s research was, that was the cause of the heart attack and things, blood circulation or heart or something, causes health problems, that’s according to that doctor.

So anyway, I’m sure there are many people who died by heart attack with that kind of negative thoughts, I am sure there are many. You put a negative label on the situation, then you believe in that, what you labeled, negative label, then appeared, after you believed in that, appeared negative, then you see negative, whether it’s a person or your life situation. So then you get upset. You see negative then you get upset, then you feel bad, then you feel bad but originally, it came from your mind is very clear. So anyway, so what this doctor said has the truth.

So anyway, so definition of Dharma, antidote to, whatever action body, speech and mind does becomes antidote to delusion that becomes Dharma. When it becomes antidote to delusion then it becomes Dharma. And that, within that, in this, relating to this definition then I bring people who don’t believe in all those other things, reincarnation and karma, all this, but want the happiness of this life then definitely needs the Dharma if want happiness of this life.

So all those other examples I mentioned are the real Dharma, which becomes pure Dharma, real Dharma, because what you practice, what you do is antidote to delusion and stops rising anger or desire, all these things, delusions, negative emotional thoughts, stop rising, it controls and stop rising or when it rises it get stopped. So all that, so this is pure Dharma, it becomes pure Dharma. Then with worldly concern to have a long life, only seeking happiness of this life, long life, healthy, to gain power, wealth, then for that reason chanting mantra, doing meditation, reciting prayers for that, that appeared Dharma but do not become Dharma all these things, didn’t become Dharma. There is no question of pure Dharma here, become Dharma but did not become pure Dharma, there is no question of it here, did not become Dharma at all, it appeared Dharma, looking outside Dharma but because the motivation is seeking happiness of this life, just long life and healthy, and the wealth and power, then for that reason doing prayers, reading sutras, doing prayers, meditation, whatever, making charity, so forth, so did not become Dharma at all, appeared Dharma. So but then the other one, the person who doesn’t accept all those other things, but only this life happiness but then, the actual practice there, actually do those things, antidote to delusions, to that definitely stops delusion, then of course, something which stops delusions of course that’s Dharma, so I’m just comparing, analyzing.

So however now, here, [pause] also often His Holiness used to say that, what the mind, mending, making the mind better, which means that, similar, which is nature of impatience, anger, then more tolerant, more egoistic then more caring others, concern of others or compassion. So that [pause] mind which is, feel so much desire then making it more content, more satisfied, more content. So this is mending the mind, so this is Buddhadharma.

So in other words, Geshe Sopa Rinpoche used to say that Dharma is which protects you from the, which holds you up, which holds you up from falling down in the lower realms. So that’s, basically it is all coming, talking the same thing, but different way of expressing Holding you up from falling down in the lower realm, protecting, holding you up from falling down in the lower realm. So in other words, protecting your mind, protecting, when you protect your mind, you protect yourself. You protect from sufferings. When you are practicing Dharma, you are protecting yourself from the sufferings. How? Because when you are practicing Dharma, so your mind is in guru devotion, devotion to the guru, devotion to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, from non-devotional thoughts, heresy and so forth, then which is virtue, which is virtue and the cause of enlightenment, all this ultimate happiness and temporary happiness, success. Then same thing, when your mind is in renunciation, renunciation of this life, the desire, clinging to this life happiness, then you have immediate happiness, peace, right there, immediate peace and happiness in your life, in your heart but also then there is happiness of future lives. Dharma, action of body, speech and mind what you are doing, with that renounced mind, with that first Dharma, renunciation to this life then activities what you are doing with body, speech and mind becomes cause of happiness of future lives. So that also becomes a basis for liberation. That is the first foundation for achieving liberation, renunciation to this life, then there’s renunciation to the future life samsara.

So then the mind, when the mind is transformed in bodhicitta then, not only the immediate peace and happiness, there is the happiness of future lives, then also from that, liberation from samsara, full enlightenment. Full enlightenment. Liberation from samsara because of bodhicitta, you collect so much merit and then you’re able to realize emptiness and then that’s how, able to cease the root of samsara, that’s how you achieve liberation from samsara, with the help of the bodhicitta, which collects unconceivable limitless skies of merits all the time. All the time when the, if the mind is able to keep in bodhicitta. So when the mind, by transforming the mind in bodhicitta, then enlightenment one is able to achieve, then all other happiness, _______, happiness of future lives then able to achieve, everything comes. So the, if your mind is selfish then the opposite, no enlightenment, no liberation from samsara, then no happiness of future lives, no happiness of this life, all, opposite, all the sufferings. So when your mind is transformed in bodhicitta you’re protecting from the self-cherishing thought, you’re protecting from all the problems, all the shortcomings of self-cherishing thought, all those things, so you can see here.

Then when you practice patience and then you protect your mind from anger, then harms to yourself, harm to family, harm to society, harm to country and harm to the people in the country, harm to the world, harm to all sentient beings. If you don’t practice patience, the anger leaves negative imprint, anger destroys the merit that has been collected in the past, it destroys the merits, and so as the Bodhicaryavatara explains that, rising anger one second destroys the one thousand eons of good karma, having made charity, so forth. Made offering to Tathagatas, Gone to the Bliss means buddhas, and so forth. And that your merit collected for one thousand eons and then one second, anger rising one second can destroy all that. It is mentioned in Bodhicaryavatara. Example like that. So if you, that means, yeah, so like that.

It destroys, it is so harmful for happiness because it destroys the cause of happiness, the virtue, one second anger rising how it is harmful, one thousand years, not years, eons of good karma, all those you put so much effort, get destroyed. And then so it delays the realizations. So like that, same there is, like the shortcomings of anger that mentioned there, Bodhicaryavatara, like that, one thousand eons then the realizations get delayed. Not only destroys the merit but when that happens that many years, eons, the realization get delayed that many years and eons. So this is unbelievable heavy shortcomings.

Then, by rising anger it leaves negative imprint back on the mind, it always leaves negative imprint back on the mental continuum, so then makes it more difficult in the future because so much negative imprint left on the mind and future lives makes it very difficult to practice patience, to control the anger it makes very difficult. If you think like this life to life, then the anger can harm. For example in this world, one person’s anger can destroy the world. Many millions of people, one person’s anger destroyed many millions of people. It happened quite a number of times in the past already, children burned in the fire, so many killed, one person’s, person who has influence, power, did not practice patience, then with anger, destroyed many millions of people, it happened quite a few times in this world history. So you can see like this. So anyway, if you think from life to life, then the anger harms to all sentient beings. If you think about life to life, this life rising anger, not practicing patience, leaves a negative imprint back on the mind, then that makes to rise, you’re creating the cause to rise anger again.

So, so much. So when you think of life to life then it harms all sentient beings. So it’s extremely dangerous.

So anyway, so when you transform your mind in patience that means you are protecting from all these sufferings, all these sufferings that causing to yourself from life to life, life to life without end. Then, to all the harms you cause to the sentient beings, other sentient beings, from life to life. Numberless sentient beings, from life to life. So then it protects you from all those, all the sufferings other sentient beings receive. So that’s Dharma, so protecting you. So that time, when you practice Dharma, then you are protecting yourself from sufferings, cause of suffering and the result sufferings, from negative karma, protecting from negative karma, engaging in negative karma, then all the result sufferings.

However, now here, to, end of this is, so when you, [pause] when you are practicing Dharma, let go the desire, like the four desirable objects, the dislike, then because of that then dislike the undesirable objects. So when you are practicing Dharma, when you are practicing this very first Dharma, letting go or renunciation to this desire clinging to this life, to these four desirable objects, so then there is unbelievable peace and happiness, whatever happens to your life, whatever change happens to your life, whether there is comfort or discomfort, praise or criticism, bad reputation, receiving materials, not receiving materials, whatever happens in your life, whatever life situation happens, it doesn’t disturb your mind, it doesn’t affect your mind because there is no, because the first Dharma, the renunciation to this life, letting go this the desire clinging to these four desirable objects, so which means desire, which means clinging to this life. So therefore, whatever happens in the life, these different situations, so it doesn’t affect your mind and your mind is continuously stable, in a state of peace and happiness and stable. There is always happiness, whichever happens there’s always happiness in the life. So the pure Dharma practitioner then, those two things are equalized, the comfort, not having comfort, having reputation, having praise or criticism or receiving material, not receiving material, however, those four desirable, four undesirable objects is equalized, same, equalized to that mind, as Nagarjuna explained. [pause] As Nagarjuna explained, there’s verses, quotation that Nagarjuna saying, to equalize those four desirable and four undesirables equalized. There are verses mentioned, so like that.

So that practitioner, [pause] so that is, definition of the pure Dharma practitioner, and also the graduate path of the, so there are three capable beings, there are four capable beings: higher capable being, middle capable being, lower capable being and ordinary capable being, as Lama Atisha explained in The Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment. So the [break in recording]