Make Your Mind an Ocean (Audio and Unedited Transcript)

By Lama Thubten Yeshe
Melbourne, Australia, 1975 (Archive #329 004)

The edited version of this talk appears in the book Make Your Mind an Ocean. The unedited transcript is provided here as a companion to the audio recording of the talk.

Lama Yeshe, Kopan Monastery, Nepal, 1973. Photo by Lynda Millspaugh.

Tonight, the subject is, what I am going talk about is mind. So, and also, mind which is your own mind rather than my mind. Perhaps we both.

If your mind is concentrated with much faith, or believing, the enjoyment feeling is comes from materialism, if you think that way, misconception mind. And dedicating life that way and believing such conception is misconception. But what I’m saying, the attitude of mind, is not the intellectual thing. You think, “Oh no, I don’t think so I have that kind of mind.” You check up. “I don’t think so I have faith completely that kind of thing.” If you check up deeper in your psychological mirror, then you can see. I don’t say intellectually, but inside there is, “I have that conception believing, and show through my action, activity everyday life.” So you must check up, in your mind. Having such poor quality mind or not, you must check up.

If you are caught, and having faith with such external world, it means, interpreted, narrow mind; if Lama interpreted, it is narrow mind, it’s a limited mind. No space. There no space. The narrow mind or limited mind, nature is sick. It means sick; is not a healthy mind. And we say, maybe terminology Buddhism, dualistic mind.

You see, in the West, they afraid people doing some action which is unusual; taking drugs or something like that. They so much afraid. Taking drug mind interest comes from the mind. First beginning, this comes from mind, not drug itself coming. Not from drug coming this kind of attitude. It comes from mind. The psychologically, I’m saying, is coming, they don’t worry about. Such polluted idea, idea, mind idea, philosophy, which makes human being become berserk, they don’t worry about, they don’t afraid. They never concerned that effective for the mind, but they concerned so much taking drugs, these things. Wrong conception too that also.

The misconception idea, wrong doctrine, coming into country, that makes freak our their mind, becomes problem for their mind, then country has more difficult than some people take drugs. Why? Psychologically, the nature of mind you don’t know. That’s why you just only see people who take drugs outside, external things, but we can’t see the idea, the pollution, the misconception is coming in the country, they can’t see. The polluted misconception coming are worse than people take one…you know…. He take, that not spread all, but the pollution, misconception, wrong idea, spread all people, and then difficult, country has no peace. You understand what I means? That all comes from the mind. Mind.

So therefore, all the mental depression and mental problems are come from the mind. So we have to treatment the mind, rather than interpret, “Oh you are unhappy. Why? You are very weak; you don’t have powerful car, so first you have to buy good car, and having this, this, this things, that time then your are happy.” That not wise advice, isn’t it? I don’t think so, that is wise advice. But his basic problem, dissatisfactory, is not not having car. He physically weak, mentally weak, is not not having car, because not having car. And he not sleeping, “Oh I can’t sleep…”—patient comes—“I not sleep,” “Oh, you take pill,”—pill is not solution. Same thing.

So you understand now, the different, Lord Buddha’s psychology and Western psychology is different, some different. I can say definitely different, how the treatment patient. Perhaps psychologist say when patient comes and says, “I have car but I’m still unhappy.” “Maybe that is wrong car, or you buy expensive one or maybe paint color differently.” You understand? And then he do again, following that done, then he come back again, “Oh, I’m still unhappy.” And then he talk about still something else superficial the sublimate something change. But that doesn’t stop his problem. If the car is agitated, totally agitated condition, then I think Lord Buddha’s psychology say give up moment, check up that. Totally give up that car, then see your problem, how is. Rather than agitated condition keeping on, on, on, on. And changing problem changing, changing, changing, change. So therefore, those kind of solution, if you make for the patient, the problem just changing; it not really giving solution for the problem. Just changing. Patient think, “Oh, I think I am better,” but still it’s the same thing, same thing.

So, recognize the nature of mind is the most important thing. And we are human being, always want satisfactory. By knowing the nature of mind, perhaps you can satisfied internally. You eternally, too. Possible. It is so important, knowing the mind nature. That’s all I’m saying, funny, something, we see, sense perception, something going on, and we say, “Oh…” something, but we couldn’t see internal world, such misconception is running continuously, keeping you completely control under the dissatisfactory, unhappy feeling. That you don’t know. You have to know that.

I think it is so important, make sure, you don’t believe that external object is only giving life worthwhile and giving satisfactory. Make sure you don’t believe. I say, it’s not the intellectual thing. It’s deep root into your mind. Many things which is we really want things, not come out intellectually. Underneath intellectual is more stronger than intellectual.

But perhaps some people think, “My psychological, basic my mind is, I’m not have faith for the material, because I learned such, such philosophies and doctrines, such religious idea.” Idea, you learning, you learn. That doesn’t mean anything. The idea, with the philosophy and doctrine does not mean your mind spiritual.

Many Western professors they explain such philosophy Buddhism and Hinduism; Christianity. He explain, intellectually. But that doesn’t mean he signifies he is spiritual. Because his mind is not the spiritual thing. His learning the spiritual philosophy and these things, he just like a tourist guide. He intellectually he explain, but if he don’t know that what he talking philosophy key, how to effective key—you understand what I mean, the key—of the philosophy, putting into experience; the key of philosophy unified with your own mind. Or, the key, your mind, and what he talk about, the spiritual trip, is not unified. He doesn’t have key. Although he explains such intellectual levels; there is difference. I saying is, conclusion is, the intellectual view-point explanation, but the real spiritual is to putting into experience is big difference. That’s all. That’s all I’m saying.

He really does not know the philosophy of Buddhism or doctrine, whatever is, how to put his own experience and how effective reaction result. That is question. So do not think you learn some philosophy and doctrines and you are spiritual. I think my interpretation of viewpoint is misconception. It doesn’t help, isn’t it? That better, cup of tea. A cup of tea is much better than learning philosophy. Isn’t it? Cup of tea is solution to give thirst. Is right there. But philosophy which is not having key and helping to support his own mind, it can’t do, that not functioning, what is purpose? Waste of time, and energy.

So you understand spiritual means. The name spiritual means investigate and searching the true nature of the spiritual, that is mind, nature of mind. There no outside spiritual. What is it? This one spiritual [holding something up]? This not spiritual, is it? This not spiritual. Spiritual is the mind. So the people who are spiritual is, and who searching the nature of mind, they really becomes spiritual. Then they effective. He sees his behavior, in other words, he sees his behavior. But one couldn’t see one’s behavior and action of his own body, speech, mind, he couldn’t see, impossible. Although he knows so many things, doctrines, philosophies, it’s a waste. It doesn’t help.

So one know the perception view of mind and attitude of mind, their own, I think one beginning spiritual. I don’t know, words you call spiritual. Doesn’t matter; isn’t word.

Otherwise, if you are too caught into such small atoms, attachment, with atoms, external world, such limited craving mind making impossible to have life pleasure—because you caught with one atom, one atom. One atom; you caught with one atom. It’s not the, I talk about philosophical things. This external energy is limited, so that your mind caught such this, your mind becomes limited. Isn’t it? Narrow. So small things, you agitated; not having ocean mind.

Often we talk about religious point of view, “moral, moral.” What is moral? Moral is understanding the nature of mind. That wisdom is moral, it become positive. And action becomes positive. That’s we call moral. Narrow mind is, basic nature is ignorance. Therefore, almost I can say, it is negative. Isn’t it? You see, the knowing psychological aspect your own mental nature, mind nature, the automatically disappear depressed mind, depression mind, and all the human being becomes for you friend, rather than enemy. It means universal living being becomes for you friend, rather than stranger for you. Because you accept, place, as you want is accept. Rather than rejecting. The narrow mind reject, isn’t it? You check up that, your own mind. I mean, all this solar system, human beings, all pleasure, all this sense pleasure coming to you, you still not satisfied. Impossible. That shows how your mind. So the satisfactory is comes from you, not comes from outside. You check up now.

Sometimes we think, “Oh fantastic, external develop, fantastic. Look at. Before, we have this, we don’t have this. Now we have this, this, this, this, this in Australia.” We think that is fantastic. Look at, good example, in America Before they think fantastic things, now becomes against for them. Now instead of helping, they hurt human beings. I mean, you know; don’t look only this Melbourne area. Try look universally what is going on. Check up, widely as much possible. Then you can see. Actually, this is, you have to know. The energy external develop physical, first develop, you say, “Oh, it’s helping, helping, helping.” Then energy itself is against, destroying itself. It’s the nature, nature of four elements. That we understand, the Buddhist scientific learning.

It’s the same thing inside too. Your body is first growing with the four elements, isn’t it? All water, fire…four elements, I think you people know. It is growing, coming, growing, growing, fantastic. Then the elements themselves becomes destroying your life. You know that is. Why? First beginning, element helping each other, like that [shows building up, up, like a tower.]. When it is a limited character nature to show when its power is finished to helping, then each other against. Then tower falling. Just like, when we grow, when we becomes old, old, and body is more sick, sick, that shows inside energy each other against it. Hot against cold, cold against hot, you know what I mean? Simple example. That is internally, externally same thing, Lama’s point of view. The limited nature, the limited material nature is like that. That not comes from believing, isn’t it?

As long you born, such bone and body and meat, such human body, the automatically bad conditions, whether you believe or not. That the evolutionary of the body, isn’t it?

But the human mind is infinitely develop. And if you, small atoms you discover, satisfaction coming from your mind, you can extend unlimited way, and everlasting satisfactory you can discover. Is possible.

It’s so simple, isn’t it? I mean, you can ask right now. Where is satisfactory feeling? Where is? Into your nose? Into your eye? Into your head? Into your lung? Into your heart? Or into your stomach? Where is? Into your leg? Into your hand? Where is satisfactory feeling? In the mind! Is it in the brain? I mean you can’t explain, if you say brain, why is in the nose, you know? Why don’t in the nose? Why [not] in the leg? How you can differentiate? Hurting leg feeling, feeling, leg here, hurting is in brain only and not here? So anyway, all the pain or enjoy or whatever feeling come, it’s the expression of the mind.

You often say, “Oh, today I have good experience.” That means you have bad experience in the mind some time. So today you say good experience. Without the mental expression, there is no good experience, there no bad experience. You say tonight dinner is good. That means you have experience, bad experience in the mind. Without having bad experiences in your mind, how you say today is good dinner? Impossible! I mean, impossible. Or maybe you discover, “Oh, this is absolutely good dinner, this is absolutely bad dinner.” Impossible there is external substantiality existent in kitchen. Impossible, isn’t it? Just the mind.

And the same thing, “I’m good husband,” “I’m bad wife,” “I’m good wife”—also the expression of the mind. When one says, “I am bad,” is not necessarily bad. One who say, “I’m so good husband,” it not necessarily he is good. Don’t you? I mean, you know. Perhaps he is proud, he is proud, so much proud, and his limited mind sticking into proud, so he says, “I’m good.” And he try with so much exaggerated mind and such concentrated mind, sticking into the external world, so he says, “I’m good husband.” And his mind is maybe disturbing. The disturbing mind, with such sticking, such sticking the narrow mind, and that becomes wife more difficult, isn’t it? (LL) How he becomes good husband, for wife? And wife every day trouble with him is not the he giving food or clothe. And wife spend day, day, day, day, day, day, day. But he is good attitude, giving peaceful environment and understanding better each other, helping, and he is really good, she is more happy and helping; and good atmosphere and vibration, they go long. Otherwise why? That’s all mind, anyway. OK.

So, knowing psychological aspect human problem, then really becomes, one becomes loving kindness to other. It’s not the intellectual things, I saying; it’s not the intellectual thing, loving kindness, one can talk hours, hours, months, months, year. That doesn’t help you. I’m sure you heard hundred times loving kindness, you are still opposite of loving kindness, in the mind. Not just the philosophy, not the words. The knowing the function of the mind, then one becomes loving kindness and spiritual.

Otherwise, even we think we are spiritual, believing intellectually, and like one husband he thinking he is good husband, he is intellectual. His mind make up. His mind make up. He make up. He more make up than his wife. Mentally, isn’t it? (LL) You understand, I mean, really, you know. And same time, I’m not joking. I mean worthwhile, such human precious life, enjoy with your own satisfactory mind, and having control your mad elephant mind, energy, have direction, I mean it’s worthwhile. Rather than too much power, the energy of mind, and no direction, and so much confusion is going continually. Is not worthwhile, human life. So therefore, you should be wise with your own mind as much possible. It’s so worthwhile.

I think that’s all. I think I have not too much to tell you. Thank you, and if you have some question, I think you can give question….If no question, OK, we can stop. Thank you. Yes?

Q. I understand the knowledge of mind is said to bring happiness and yet you use the word everlasting. You insinuate, therefore, that if one could understand one’s mind completely, that the mind transcends the death of the physical body.
Lama. Possible. Yes, yes, right. And the physical, even negative aspect energy come, the wisdom can transmit it into wisdom and digested itself rather than blocking. Possible, good, good, very good.

Q. Is the mind body, or the body mind?
Lama. How?

Q. Because I perceive it.
Lama. Because you perceive it? Do you perceive this one [holds something up]?

Q. Yes.
Lama. This is mind too? This wood is mind? Because perceiving to you. Is mind?

Q. That I ask you.
Lama. All right, good. That’s right. Yes. Good question. The mind, your body is combination, sort of combined, and strong relationship, you understand? Connected strongly. When the body has something affected, it registered in the mind, remember, as science says. It is the same thing. Because they are linked together. But that does not mean characteristic nature, the relative nature of body—meat, bone—is the mind. You cannot say. OK, good. Thank you.

Q. Please explain the aim of Buddhism Enlightenment, brotherhood, universal love, super consciousness, realization of truth, attainment of nirvana: which are the aims of Buddha. (n: he said, what are the aims of Buddhism? Enlightenment, universal love, super consciousness, attainment of nirvana…what are the aims of Buddhism?
Lama. Both. (n: all.) All. It is super consciousness, waking state of mind and universal love, no discriminating—universal living being is wanting happy, not desire unhappy feeling, equally, same thing. But my dualistic, wrong conception mind making, say, “This is my close friend, I want keep. (LL) I don’t want share others.” OK, you understand what I mean. Good, I’m saying is…so therefore, universal love, of course, is the Buddhist aim, and then…what did he say? [n: enlightenment.] Enlightenment. Of course, that’s right. I think you know. I don’t need explanation what is enlightenment. I think that all aim is approach Lord Buddha’s teaching, that showing method, approach, to understanding the nature of mind is for gaining those kind of realization. Or aim, to gaining that kind of realization. Good. OK? Clear? Or you have question?

Q. But which is considered to be the highest and most important aim? (n: What is the highest and most important aim?)
Lama. Most highest aim is enlightenment. And universal love. Which is such narrow mind difficult to attain that kind of realization. OK? Clear? Oh, good. Then?

Q. How do colors correspond with states of meditation. For instance, different colors of the spectrum, how do they correspond with different psychological states in Tibetan painting? (n: How do different colors correspond with different mental states, the relationship in Tibetan paintings.)
Lama. Different mind has functioning perceiving different color. Like, for example, when you are anger, red color comes, without painted outside. You know? OK. So, this is good example. The same thing, each state reached has different color, and different colors visualization effective for the different mind. Therefore necessary, yes. So, I think it is very necessary, some people very emotion levels disturbing mind cannot comprehend even everyday life, you put some different colors house, it is helpful sometimes, helpful. So you discover, the color is, color, real color is comes from mind: isn’t it? Do you? What do you think, I have a question? When you are angry, emotionally, with me, and then you have color, red color, that color is external or internal? Hmmm? What is? You meditating? [Am I meditating now?] OK, I’m joking, just joking, OK. You don’t hear my question. Did he hear my question? [n: he said you already answered his question.] I see, good. Yes?

Q. What’s the practical implication of your sort of, if am I right, saying, to have an idea of good you also have to have an idea of bad, which is something I can accept theoretically but I find quite problem is learning how to practice it. There still seem to be some things that you mentioned, such as drugs for example…
Lama. What he say? I’m not sure your words is clear, maybe you, excuse me, maybe you get up, then maybe little bit loud…thank you so much.

Q. I’m just wondering, what are the practical implications of your saying that in order to have an idea that something is good, you must also have an idea in your mind of bad. [Yes.] Now, what are the practical implications of putting that into your actual daily everyday life? I mean if you’re confronted by situations that are...well, I often say that (involved in?) some of them you’d have to say are detrimental to one’s image than say...[still hard to hear question]
Lama. (pause) So, that I saying that, your interpretation either good or bad is your own experience of your own mind. Your bad is not necessarily for me bad. That’s all, yes.

Q. But my bad is still my bad...
Lama. Your bad is for you bad, because your mind says “bad.” [Can I go beyond that?] Oh yes, you can go! You have to realize, “Why I say this is bad?” You understand? That time you question subjectively, objectively, both. Not only question here [shows externally]. Question inside too. So perhaps there is, between, there is unity mind. Some here. [In the] between space there is unity mind, wisdom OK?

Q. At what age did you enter a monastery?
Lama. Six years.

Q. What is nirvana?
Lama. What is nirvana? Beyond the wrong conception, agitated mind, is nirvana. OK? And reach everlastingly satisfied, such integrate wisdom, that is nirvana, OK? Clear? OK, thank you.

Q. There are a lot of religions around who claim theirs is the only way to enlightenment. Does Buddhism recognize all these as having the one source? (n: Every religion says that it is the one way to enlightenment. Does Buddhism recognize all religions as coming from the same source, same root, same place?)
Lama. There will be, actually, absolute answer and relative answer. But all religion even claims or emphasizes attainment enlightenment, is actually same thing. But try different way approach. Is helpful. But I think different religions has different method and could be some religions are misconception, also true. Don’t think, that is, what is Lama contradicting. Example, some early doctrines, about two thousand years before, in India, there were many Hindu religions, and believing sun and moon is god. Still existent. You don’t worry about that, I’m not talk about even. Still that kind of existent. My point of view is they are wrong conception. But still I say they’re good. Why? [Is that a question?] Pardon? {You’re asking me why?] What he say? [n: he wants to know if you’re asking him why.] No, I like you check up, that’s why I say why! (LL) Why? Because, the philosophy is wrong conception, but still basic they accept morality. You understand? Be good human being, not harm. Something they accept, so there possibility they reach some point and one day they discover, “Oh, I believing God is external, there is external light, is wrong conception. They stop it themselves when they state reach, some point. Therefore, every religion, there is positive, there is, therefore, we cannot complaining, “This is totally right, this is totally wrong.” OK? Good. Very good. Yes?

Q. As for as your knowledge goes, right now, today, in Tibet, in Lhasa, what is the true position of the people there now? Are they free to continue their Buddhist religion like it was before, or...
Lama. …they not free. Yes. Good question, yes, I think, if you want question…

Q. Well, what then are they doing? If before, they followed the Buddhist religion, well how is their position now? Those that are still in Lhasa?
Lama. Yes. Those are suffering, as before, also they cannot have the religious attitude. Cannot take. Completely against it, Chinese authorities. They don’t allow anything to do with religion, and monasteries are destroyed, and scripture, Buddhist books are burned in fire, those things, yes.

Q. Yes, but still, the people who are there, who were there before, maybe are old people now, could they just burn up the books and forget about everything, or do they still in their minds and in their hearts…
Lama. …yes, of course, impossible to separate their minds from such a strong, powerful wisdom impression. Impossible to forget. You right, you right.

Q. (inaudible) [What he say?] n: He said all religions, like for example, Hindu religions teach to avoid evil action and to do good actions and so doing good actions there will come positive karmic result. How does this accumulation of positive karma help one to reach enlightenment? How does Buddhism explain that?
Lama. So simple. Because mental development is not radical, changing, this putting like this—not like that. This can change like that, putting (?) immediately, but the defilements, delusion of the mind, to decrease is slowly, slowly evolutionary, and gradually, gradually can purify totally. It takes time. Therefore, some people in this earth cannot take such example, Buddhism. Like, some people, we explain, you should have universal love, and other people feeling, thought, other people’s feeling, you should have as you have feeling, as your attachment serve for you, same thing you should have. Other people say, “Oh, impossible, that.” Therefore, such gaining universal love, or enlightenment, it takes time. So therefore, there is no space to explain for his mind. It preoccupied by the misconception. Therefore, slowly, slowly, such, such a religion helps him to lead such point, perfect view of right wisdom. Therefore, it is necessary, other religions too. Different religions too. Am I clear for you?

Q. (inaudible) [Oh, (to n) you explain him, your question; make clear for him.] n: He asked how creating positive karma helps you achieve enlightenment in Buddhism. Even in one religion like Buddhism, how does better and better positive karma help. [That what I explain him; I hope he understand.]
Lama. You say is, such Hindu religions followers having, making virtues and morality and slowly, slowly gaining, how can gaining realization enlightenment? You, your question, isn’t it? If I make you. And I answer for that. That’s all, OK? I hope so, you understand. Because human development is cannot go boom! like that, like changing color, like that. Physical changing is so easy but mental development you need slowly, slowly, and he can digest it, his mind, you give… like sick person, good example, I make for you, if you want more clear, sick person, the doctor gives, sometimes say, “Oh, you cannot have meat, you have only biscuit today and tomorrow, you have too much temperature in your body; and he give little bit biscuit, biscuit, and slowly, slowly, slowly he give heavy, heavy, heavy food, and slowly, slowly he give meat too, and eggs, you understand? It’s the method. If you give steak for him, instead of helping for him, he breaking, he freak out. Therefore, necessary slowly, slowly lead for him. [n: he asked, how does collecting merit bring you closer to enlightenment. He wasn’t talking about other religions, so much. He said creating good karma brings good result, how does that help?] That’s so simple, I don’t need answer. OK, I think clear. OK, one question, I think here…you question before…

Q. Anybody Tibetan monks or nuns, when they die, do they take their body with them? Maybe body disappear or something...
Lama. Yes, he take his body in his (?shorts, shoulder), when he die! (LL). I’m joking. I think impossible, isn’t it? But there is, sometimes, they sort of digested their physical body into wisdom. Sort of disappear. That is possible. But not take physically, like that. Okay?

Q. Mind, if you’re looking for it, can lie to you, so that you won’t understand truly what your mind is. Without a teacher who knows one step you can’t raise yourself up to know the truth, is the monastery of Buddhism designed so that each man pulls the next man, the next step of knowledge, in a chain? Is that what you are doing now?
Lama. Yes that’s right. They do this in Tibetan monastery. Yes. [You are teaching so that you might learn?] Yes. I must learn. I am learning. OK. Good. Yes, you right. Very true. Otherwise, if you teach them treatment patient, the student, only just information from reading books and philosophy, dry, it’s so dry. No key. It’s air, philosophy is air. Air, you know? Nothing to do with me. Therefore, you need key. Remember, I say, key to putting into your own experience; the unity with your own mind, then becomes perfect solution, religion. Example, in the bible, so many method, sometimes no key. No one give key, key. You understand? Not coming into heart. Book is excellent, but that doesn’t mean, book excellent, make you are knowledgeable. Unless your mind becomes wisdom.

Q. Can we go back to enlightenment. And, what you require for enlightenment is a slow process. Now surely you can’t be half enlightened, surely enlightenment is spontaneous. (n: You said enlightenment is a slow process, but you can’t be enlightened and not enlightened together. Therefore, surely enlightenment is sudden thing. Like, one moment not enlightened, then...)
Lama. You’re right, I think you right. The enlightenment is, sometimes enlightened, sometimes totally ignorant, is impossible. Therefore, enlightenment is awakened state, the moment experience. Agree, yes. Not like taking drugs, hallucination, I have good time, when the drug energy is disappear, you totally down and depressed, sort of. Not like that. Experience of the enlightenment is permanently stay at that level. Very good, yes.

Q. In this life? While we’re living? Permanently, enlightened? Just make that a little clearer. Just now you said…in this life, while we are living here, without being dead, here, we can be enlightened, in such a state [Possible, yes] that there’s no doubt? In this life?
Lama: Possible, yes. IN this life, possible, if you have wisdom enough. [If you have wisdom enough!] Right! (LL, GL) Yes, you…

Q. Going back to question of teacher, why do we need a teacher? I believe, well, who taught the first teacher [Why need teacher?] Yes, why do we need teacher?
Lama. Why need teacher? Why need you English teacher? For the communication. Same thing. Enlightenment also communication. If you I explain simple way, enlightenment also is communication. So such mundane life, going shop, buying one chicken (?), you need communication with shopkeeper, therefore, you’re learning language. Same thing. Such no experience previous life, or this life, and you going entirely new sort of experience, you don’t know what you’re going do. So therefore it need somebody guide you and to show you, make you understanding, make sure you understand rather than you hallucinate.

Q. Who taught the first teacher?
Lama. Wisdom. First teacher is wisdom.

Q. Well, therefore, if one man can do it, surely we all can do it? [Pardon?] n: He says, first teacher, first human teacher, he didn’t have teacher, then why do we need teacher? If it’s possible for the first teacher not to have a teacher.
Lama. There is no beginning! (GL) There is no beginning, there is no end. Wisdom is universal wisdom, wisdom is universally conscious. Good!

Q. Does generating universal love bring you to enlightenment or do first you have to reach enlightenment and then you generate universal love?
Lama. First you generate universal love, then your mind reaches the realization of equilibrium state, without too much emphasizing this, this is that. You understand? OK. The mind is balanced, it means, terminology Buddhism, you reach beyond dualistic mind. OK, good dear. Yes, you?

Q. Is it true that the mind can only take you so far on the spiritual path and at some point in order to go further you have to give up your mind?
Lama. How you give up mind!!!? I joking (GL). Impossible, impossible you give up your own mind. The mind is, even you, basic human nature, what we call ordinary living life, that time also you have mind. Even you reach enlightenment, such things, you have mind. Mind is continually going. The mind things are, intellectual cannot give up, cannot pushing, “I don’t want mind.” That is we think, karmic, sticking into your body. Intellectual cannot do, say, “I don’t want my mind.” Impossible. If the mind is like this material from, then you OK, but mind is not like that.

Q. What is the relationship between mind and soul?
Lama. Same thing. Yes, very good. I think your question is basically very important. Some people, some intellectual people think, or some intellectual spiritual people think, “I bored my mind, I reject my mind.” I don’t believe that. It’s impossible! How can you reject your mind? Impossible. But many people think that way, OK? You check up that.

Q. Do lamas ever become physically ill, and if so, what method do you use to overcome the illness? Do you see healing power?
Lama. Yes, yes sometimes we using the healing power, sometimes we using the mantra power, sometimes we meditate. Certain things we do puja. You know puja? I think you know. But puja is not, I hope you understand, puja means, people go India, everywhere street they go like that, “Blah, blah, blah…” something. That is not puja. Puja is state of mind wisdom. OK, good, wonderful. So therefore, many interpretation, similarity, some people say puja. Puja means what? Ting, ting, ting, ting, this is puja. It means wisdom. Wisdom ting, ting, then OK, and wisdom is not ting, ting, outside ting, ting is not so good. Is not puja. Good, very good. Yes, thank you. Then, you?

Q. (Inaudible.) n: She said she doesn’t see that in the West our material philosophy is so apart from your philosophy, what you explained, and she thinks that the problem is not with the object but our attitude to the object. I think she thinks your denying the existence of the phenomenal world, like you’re denying the existence of relative truth. I think she thinks that…perhaps explain the two levels, inter-related or…I don’t know.
Lama. Attitude, you means, attitude to grasping or not grasping, this kind of attitude, or what you mean? Your attitude towards material object, what you mean?

Q. Well, these external objects do exist, they exist outside ourselves, except that our consciousness can exist on that same plane, or idea plane, but when we die I still believe these objects, objects only, remain, but not for us, not for the individual…
Lama. Oh yes, I agree with you, yes. When we die, outside object is still there, but your interpretation, your projection, is disappear. [Yes.] That’s right, agree.

Q. But, well, how is that so radically opposed to materialistic philosophy? [n: How is what so radically opposed?] Your theory of mind. You’re saying that what is a phenomena, position maybe, is that what we see is only what (?), the world is an illusion, not an illusion in that…I mean by illusion that it’s unreal, that only our mind is real. But, if I take mind, phenomenal matter, with brain waves, energizing fields, I don’t see that it’s incompatible. (n: She says why do you say the external world is illusion, because after our consciousness goes, these things still remain, and she think that, her materialist philosophy is not so different, because she thinks that, while her consciousness perceives objects, they do exist. So why do you say it’s an illusion?)
Lama. Why I say illusion, such materialistic world object, because the object what you perceive is your own mind view. Therefore I say illusion. But you think, you think, you think when you look at this table, when you are disappear, still your view of table is existent. That not true. Your view table is disappear, but another view table is still here. Ya. That’s right, yes. OK? Yes. I think so. I think we have good communication.

Q. How do we recognize the right teacher?
Lama. Our teacher? Your own wisdom. Not following by blindly. Check up as much possible is worthwhile or not for you. Before you following any teacher’s advice, you check up. Not like, Tibetan, we use, say, terminology Tibetan, we say, not like taking, you giving dog meat, without hesitation dog take hap! Dog, you give meat for him, he take without hesitation. So therefore, the spiritual guide, or whatever you call, teacher or guru or whatever you call, you must check up. Yes. Very important these things. That’s why I saying, before, remember, the pollution, the misconception idea, or doctrine, that is worse than people who take drug. It is so much effective; that, that waste so much your time, waste your life, with such misconception. Stead of beneficial for you, it becomes problem to you. Therefore I say, you be wise. Right, OK, good. Yes?

Q. Just one more question. It’s only a point of interest, but seeing that you are a lama from Tibet, and, have you, in your travels, come across a series of books that have been written by a man who, I just want to know whether this is possible or not possible, from your knowledge, because you are a Buddhist monk from Tibet. This man happens, before he wrote these books, was in no way connected with Tibet or Buddhism or anything. He has written a series of books which are well known and they are still selling on the shelves of the book shops; he was in no way connected with Buddhism or Tibet or lamas or anything. He’s written that…people know him here Lobsang Rampa, he writes under that name, you might have heard of this. [Yes, I heard so many times.] Is it possible that he says, the spirit of a true lama, from Tibet, some years ago, how many years ago I don’t know. He’s dead now. His spirit comes into his body so that he can write these things, what he has written down. Any man who has no connection with this would not know how to write the things he has written down, as if it was himself, he knew all these things. Could it be the spirit of a lama or, could this be true? He says his name is Lobsang Rampa. And he is writing these books; they are very good. And is this possible, or to your knowledge could this be so, that a man like me, or who knows nothing about…say I know nothing about Hinduism, and yet I can write sometimes, I can write everything in detail regarding Hinduism? Could this be, as happened in the case of Lobsang Rampa?
Lama. Yes, yes, I understand. [Could this be true, could this be correct?] Yes, I understand, I am communicating with you, I understand what you are saying. (GL) I think he is such man and same time another spirit, wisdom is coming his mind, sort of demon occupied, sort of, is impossible. [But he knows so much about Tibet.] He knows something, but he don’t know…everything he says is not necessarily, because he says, remember, he says, Lama opened, making operation here, opened third eye. It’s not right, he! (GL) Wrong conception. Wrong conception. There’s no lama make physically, you open. Lama open wisdom eye. [It doesn’t mean a eye like this eye coming from here...] Yes, but he explain can open this one here, lama make operation and these things. Physically impossible that. [Oh, yes, but he doesn’t mean it like that; he means a spiritual eye of wisdom, an eye of intellect and wisdom; not an eye like this.] Oh yes, that’s possible yes, lama can open spiritual wisdom key. That’s right; that can do. But many information idea perhaps he exaggerated. You must check up. Yes good question.

Q. As far as you know, could this be possible, is this true? [What kind of possible?] This business about Lobsang Rampa (n: he means could it be possible that this person, in this life, then born in the West, could he be incarnation of Lama who lived in Tibet before, and this is how he has knowledge of Tibetan things now.)
Lama. I think that is sort of impossible things, impossible. [It’s not all related to the third eye…] Yeah, yeah, yeah…but I don’t think so; that not right. That impossible, that impossible. There is some method, but who has that realization, he never talk that way. One who has realization, he never talk that way: “I have that kind of realization.” He never talk that; although he has realization. But one who talk, perhaps one who doesn’t have. OK? Yes?

Q. Is it true, I often get the impression that the aim of all spiritual activity is to take you beyond the finite world, the world of change…are there truths in the finite world that we have to end as…[What you mean, are there true what?] Are there laws…? (n: he said because the purpose of the spiritual path is to go beyond impermanent things, but in this world, the sense objects, are there truths in themselves and are there laws which operate in this realm…I think he means the relative truth.)
Lama. You mean this world is it truth or not, this outside world is truth or not? You asking me? [not…not…] You saying is the religious purpose is to reach beyond, leave such the worldly agitated world, therefore, you asking are this world truth or not—you asking that one? [I guess I am asking, it seems to me, the aim of the self-realization is kind of short-circuited when you just…] No, no, first your question is make clear question. What is you asking, what is truth or not? Outside world or inside world or your nose or…? (LL) [Perhaps it’s the ideas that come to mind; some ideas…] So idea, I see, idea comes from mind is truth or not? Good question, isn’t it? You think that is truth? [Some ideas that come from mind seem to be truth, and some ideas don’t.] That’s all I saying you. All right idea or wrong idea, everything comes from mind. Therefore how can say? Is truth because…is wrong, is wrong truth. If it’s right, is right truth. Therefore truth has many levels, and terminology Buddhism explains relative truth, absolute truth. So what you mean, absolutely or relative? [No, relative truth.] Relative truth? Ah, relative truth, can be possible. Yes, possible, yes. Some are relatively truth, some are relatively wrong conception. Example, you dreaming, your house, big elephant coming and try knock your head. That is relatively not true. But you see this [holds something up], relatively true, but absolutely, maybe misconception.

Q. Lama, could you elaborate on relative mind, and also could you explain what you mean by “check up”? (n: Two questions: what do you mean by dualistic mind, and what do you mean by “check up? Two questions.)
Lama. Dualistic means, the mind dualistic means, since you born up to now, always two things complicated in your mind. That is we call dualistic. Always two things, always two things; there no single things you point. Always, when you see one thing, “What about this?” Instinctively competing, instinctively comparative—when you see one thing, “What about this?” The two things always make you unequal, that is mind called dualistic mind. But the checking is, your second question, checking, psychological, the mental is healthy or not, you must check up in the morning, you make sure you are not freak out. That means; my “check up” means. Investigate, and seeking. That means, I check up, I say you check up.

Q. How do we know if we have the right motivation, if it all determined by karma, or do we have a chance of unconditioned choice?
Lama. The pure motivation is not the karma determination, fixture, sort of. If the understanding knowledge wisdom, then comes pure motivation. The no understanding ,very difficult pure motivation. Example, no understanding my own selfishness characteristic nature, I can’t help others. I don’t recognize my own selfishness behavior, so that I always blame others. So therefore, by knowing, one becomes pure motivation and purely dedicated action body speech mind to other sentient beings. That’s right. Wonderful question.

Thank you so much. I think we now we stop, pure motivation. Wonderful, thank you so much. With pure motivation, we sleep well, we dream well, enjoy well, thank you so much. Thank you, everybody.