Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama (1989)

By His Holiness the Dalai Lama
Dharamsala, India

His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama was interviewed by Buddhist monk Hermes Brandt in Dharamsala on January 20, 1989. His Holiness discusses spiritual experience and how we can be inspired by those who have attainments on the path to enlightenment. The interview was for the tenth anniversary of Maitreya magazine and the Dutch translation was subsequently published in the magazine. The interview is published here in English for the first time. Lightly edited by Sandra Smith.  

His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Ganden Jangtse, India, December 2019. Photo: Bill Kane.

[Hermes presents an issue of the Maitreya magazine to His Holiness, who then browses through it.]

Hermes: The first question. Mahayanists strive to become a buddha, but it is difficult to have a concrete idea of what it is actually like to be a buddha. What does it feel like to be enlightened? What kind of experience is it?

His Holiness: [Laughs] I can’t say. The enlightened feeling, the experience?

Hermes: Yes. 

His Holiness: I think enlightened means knowing fully. So now, you see, at least that part we can know some experience. When something is difficult to understand or to see, once you see it clearly and understand it well, you feel some kind of satisfaction, isn’t it? At least on that point you have some kind of full confidence. Now this is that. That is that. Now that same mind gradually knows that becoming enlightened means fully understanding, fully realizing everything. Then of course [you get] some kind of deep satisfaction. From that viewpoint you can understand. Especially the human being, the human intelligence, when you face some kind of ignorance you feel uncomfortable and try to eliminate that. Once you realize that, once that obstacle vanishes, you feel tremendously relieved. Something like that. So in that way you can know something. [Laughs] You can tshod dpag gis zhag … how to say?

Tenzin Geche: You can assume.

His Holiness: You can assume1 about the mental happiness or mental satisfaction of that level.

Hermes: Thank you. Ordinary people experience the earth as round, circling around in the universe. Do people with higher realizations experience the universe as flat, with Mount Meru at the center?

His Holiness: No, I don’t think so. This is not a question of higher spiritual experience or the level of spiritual experience. Here it was usually an ancient Tibetan scholar, and of course, at that time, the modern concepts had not yet come to Tibet. Within the Buddhist explanation there are different views of the world.

On that subject what they said was, “Due to different karmic influences, karmic factors, for certain people the world appears in a different way.” Like the—I don’t know how to say—usually if a human being, a deva or god, in the devaloka [god realm], and a preta, three types of sentient beings, are looking at one bowl of water, at the same time under special karmic influences the human being can see it as water, the deva can see it as nectar, and the preta can see as it as blood or something like that. The same object, due to a special force of karma appears differently. So some Tibetan scholars explain it that way.

So now here, if one flat world ever exists, then it appears to certain people as round, but I think, probably, I personally feel the scientific version is authentic. That is tested and experimented, so it is proven. So then as a Buddhist, particularly as a Mahayana Buddhist who places more credence on reason rather than quotations or rules, scriptures, then of course.... [According to] Buddhist scriptures, I think the Buddha mentioned a variety of worlds or universes, and I think some are comparatively flat. That does not mean that the entire universe should necessarily be flat. This entire earth is round, but particularly the Aryabhumi, India, is comparatively flat. That meaning is also maybe possible. Anyway, this is not a question of the level of spiritual experience.

Now, seeing a Buddha statue, just one statue, no speech, nothing, that appearance depends very much on our own spiritual experiences. For example, the Avalokiteshvara statue which occasionally came to the Tsuglhakang,2 which usually stays with me there, for us, including the Dalai Lama, it is just a statue, no speech, but the Fifth Dalai Lama received many initiations and many teachings from this very statue, the same statue. This is not due to the statue, but due to our own spiritual experiences. Today we saw just a statue. When our internal experience, our spiritual experiences develop higher, higher, then these become living. So on that occasion, that aspect, on that point, ’di’i phyogs la ….

Tenzin Geche: From that point of view.

His Holiness: ... that category, how should I say it, that kind, is very much related to the spiritual experiences. And also, now you see, for us this is solid. [His Holiness points to a table] Once you realize the deeper nature of shunyata, or the deeper realization that all these things are a creation of mind, that does not mean you deny these are external matter. You accept them as external matter. At the same time, ultimately, it is, how to say, a creation or reflection, rnam par zhag de (?)

Tenzin Geche: Projection.

His Holiness: Not projection.

Tenzin Geche: Reflection.

His Holiness: I don’t know. I think this happened ultimately due to clear light, from that kind of experience of deeper realization, and with that, you fully realize, you have fully developed that kind of realization, so when you touch the table, it is no longer solid. For that person it’s not solid, there’s no obstacle. So these things, solid things, depend on the person. Have you seen those metal or stone handprints?

Hermes: I have seen many hand- and footprints in rocks in Tibet, made by lamas.

His Holiness: Clear?

Hermes: Very clear.

His Holiness: Mm. [Next question.]

Hermes: Approximately how many Indians have reached highest enlightenment since Shakyamuni Buddha started teaching and how many Tibetans?

His Holiness: [Bursts out laughing] I don’t know.

Hermes: Approximately, just to have an idea: two, ten or one million?

His Holiness: Indians? If you consider the ones who are well-known, I think one thousand. And then those who are not well-known, I don’t know, that is difficult to say, but I think at least a few million. Now in the case of the Tibetans, I think well-known, perhaps a few hundred; then the unknown ones, perhaps a few hundred thousand. I don’t know, it’s difficult to say. Actually it’s very, very difficult to say.

Now if you ask about today, then it’s more difficult to say. [His Holiness laughs] It should be easier to tell what the present situation is than the past history, but I think in this case it is more difficult to say. Now one thing, genuine Buddhist practitioners usually very much hide their inner qualities, they don’t show them.

For example, one rule of the bhikshu is that if you have already reached the state of arhat, if you tell that truth, you get the downfall of truly claiming to be an arhat. I think at present, as far as I know, there are some people who have deep realizations, and with that, they have some extraordinary experiences, but whether they are fully enlightened, that is difficult to say, very difficult.

Hermes: Does Your Holiness think there has already been a Westerner who has reached the highest enlightenment?

His Holiness: Highest?

Hermes: Highest.

His Holiness: Highest ... I think there are two ways, two categories. One, due to past experiences—no, how to say—due to, I think, something like reincarnation, actually they have already achieved the highest spiritual experiences. I think that is possible. That is one category. That is always possible. You see that not only in the human community, but also in the other animal community it is possible.

Another category is an ordinary person who through a new opportunity, a new situation, practiced Buddhadharma and through that they reached a certain stage, but I think at the moment that is difficult. I think at the maximum maybe four or five decades. I think Buddhism from Theravadin countries reached the West perhaps in the late nineteenth century. Then, strictly speaking, from the Mahayana viewpoint, without the realization of shunyata and without the genuine experience of bodhicitta, it’s impossible to achieve these ten bhumis. So, you see, practitioners of the Hinayana teaching alone could not reach these states. Through the Theravada system, [through practices] such as the four mindfulnesses, there is the possibility of achieving the level of arhat. Therefore, it’s difficult. Within a short period it’s very difficult.

But at the same time I already noticed some Westerners have had some kind of extraordinary experiences through these different practices. There are some cases, and somehow it seems easier to develop some kind of spiritual experiences for a Westerner than a Tibetan. That strangely seems to be the case with some people. Maybe it is because Westerners have a very practical approach. Sometimes we [Tibetans] accept [Buddhism] very easily but do not put much effort into the actual practice, or maybe it’s due to past karmic force, I don’t know.

Hermes: Do you think it will be long before Westerners also start to reach enlightenment in big numbers?

His Holiness: Oh yes, of course. Actually, regarding the Buddha’s teaching or doctrine, overall, now it’s already more than half a period at least, 2,500 years have now passed, so generally speaking, overall, it’s now declining. So that makes some difference.

Hermes: It is more difficult now.

His Holiness: Yes. Of course, there are individual cases, some people who are achieving certain things that during the Buddha’s time were highest. Individually it’s still possible, of course.

It’s a strange question. [His Holiness laughs] It is good, I think. I think for Westerners these questions are very important. Usually, according to my own experience of the three [objects of] refuge, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, the Sangha are very important. My feeling is that it’s almost like when you are running, racing, competing, if you find someone is far, far away, then it is difficult to grow the determination to catch up, isn’t it? But if someone is just a few feet away, just ten feet or twenty feet, then there is the feeling of hope and competition, “He reached there; I can go there too.” It’s that kind of feeling, isn’t it?

So in that sense, for us becoming a buddha is something far away, isn’t it? Those Sangha who are on the level of the tenth bhumi or ninth bhumi or first bhumi and even before that, those on the path of preparation or the path of accumulation feel they can do it, thinking, “Another [level] just a little above us. It’s not far, so I can do it.” That kind of feeling. Therefore, for this kind of question there are people who, although not at the highest level of enlightenment, have some kind of [attainment]. If we know these things, then that gives us some kind of genuine inspiration. Good.

Hermes: Your Holiness is interviewed very often. Are there any questions that interviewers never ask, but Your Holiness feels should be asked?

His Holiness: [Reflects for a few seconds, then laughs] Nothing.

Hermes: Finally, does Your Holiness have any message for the readers of Maitreya magazine?

His Holiness: Greetings. I think in general, regarding the world situation, humanity on this small planet, it seems as the time goes more, how to say, the basic human natural feeling, for example, is disliking war, isn’t it? There is a genuine desire or feeling of love, respect and wish for peace. I think people’s nationality or national boundaries are comparatively less in people’s minds—thinking only about this nation or that nation is less important, and having more awareness or more feeling, understanding and awareness of the importance of a global way.

Also thinking or being more concerned about the environment. In other words, it seems the world situation, the trend, the basic human spirit is gaining the upper hand. I feel this is a positive indication. Under these circumstances, we—particularly those of us who practice, who believe in the importance of love and compassion—should take seriously the sense of universal responsibility. I think externally the general atmosphere seems favorable or indicates that we need that kind of human attitude, that it should develop. This is my feeling.

So the readers, our friends, can look at this situation, then practice well and try to contribute as much as possible.

Hermes: Thank you very much.


Notes

1 I think rather: estimate (Tib: ཚོད་དཔག་གིས་ཞག་). – Hermes Brandt. [Return to  text]

2 The main temple in Dharamsala. [Return to text]